Episode 94 Discussion

[Keith]

Download 94 HERE.

Show notes on the main page.

Oh, and podcasting ain't dead.  Our numbers?  Still on the rise.  (Thanks iTunes!)

[Michael L.]

See?  And y'all were worried...



I think B is working hard to justify his piracy.  Although there is bad magic out there, it is also easier than ever to be an informed magic consumer.  Go Magic Go, My Lovely Assistant, Magic Bunny and such give even the most isolated magicians a chance to hear about products in advance.

When I started magic as a kid, I had no money.  My parents did have much either... magic was a great hobby because I didn't need much more than a few coins, a deck of cards or two and a good book or two.  For less than $25 the same Internet that is supplying you with stolen material could connect you with enough material to easily fill a year or two!  The Learned Pig and other sites supply a virtual library full of information....  Magic thrived for hundreds and hundreds of years before video, so do not try to maintain that you cannot learn magic without video.

Also, as one of the people not happy with SAM, it is not the library that upsets me it is the fact that they loan their members material that was not purchased but taped from television.

[McAig]

yay!

[Michael L.]

http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorderproduct.php?ID=9504

Scraper Card Through Glass link

No need sleight hand....

[sklinger63]

I can only assume the "Scraper" name comes not from the act of "scraping" the chosen card off the back of the glass...but in fact, the "scraping" of the huge glob of magician's wax left on the window.  Better name might be "ForceGooeyGlass", since it will force you to reconsider purchasing any more magic from their site.

[FigaroTheParrot]

Scott Westerman has the most hypnotic, reassuring, and melodious voice I've heard in a long time. Reminds me of Eugene Burger or Alex Elmsley. I think I could listen to him read the dictionary.

As per the SAM thing - I basically agree with Michael, about the loaning of material that they did not purchase, but if things are taped from TV, and the TV bill is paid for, isn't that comparable to purchasing someone's material? Once it airs on TV, the creator must know that the vast majority of the public is going to watch, and especially now with the advent of TiVO, incessant reruns and things like Apple TV, some may save a copy for future viewing? It seems to me like once it's on TV, viewing rights are pretty much up for grabs. If they were selling things they taped off TV, that would be one thing..but just loaning out taped programs? I dont know...it just doesn't seem that odious.

Hope that didn't come across as a challenge or anything - its an honest question..I'm not sure how the law/ethics of it work out exactly.

[Michael L.]

First of all, there is no broadcast TV bill in the US; even if there were that reasoning also justifies bringing your camcorder to the multiplex as long as you don't sneak in!
Second of all, taping specials from television and then offering them when they could be purchased is unethical.
Third, making a copy for distribution not legal, even if you are a library.  Understand, SAM has offerings that combine local TV news segments with nationally broadcast specials... obviously from someone's personal video tape collection.
Fourth, much of this material is from before digital copying; some from before video tape being commonplace.
Five, SAM is supposed to be an upholder of the rights of magicians and their material... how does offering their members copies of "Hello, Sucker" (which you have to pay a "transfer fee" of like $10 to get) with other shows from other producers attached uphold the rights of the producers or Mr. Yedid, who sells the legal copies?

[FigaroTheParrot]

Hmm...never thought about it that way.

I guess there is a line between a personal recording of a TV show and distributing a recording to others. Yeah...definitely some ethical boundaries being crossed.

Thanks for clearing up the controversy Michael!

[McAig]

as someone who only started out in magic after the internet was well and truly established, in my opinion, while the internet has made piracy simple and cost-free, it has completely demolished the case for anyone having the excuse that they can fairly pirate stuff and then only pay for what they use. very few items are not reviewed somewhere on the internet, and even if they are not, you can still call a range of dealers (finding their numbers on the internet too) who sell the items and you'll find ones willing to be helpful and tell you if it will do what you're looking for. if this STILL doesn't get you any information, posting a question or two on the various forums will usually get you an answer.

i agree that product descriptions sometimes try to make things more difficult to work out, but piracy can't be justified on the basis that some tricks are sold with poor or misleading descriptions, when the chances are that the popular, usually accurately described, tricks will be the ones most sought after to download. we can put the originator/dealer's claims to a HUGE degree of scrutiny these days, it's not like saying that some guy in a shop showed you it but forgot to tell you something crucial and so you were duped. it's your money, you don't need to follow your first instinct and hit the "pay now" button when another 20 or 30 minutes of googling will give you a ton more of information on the advantages or disadvantages of the product.

but there's no such thing as 100% certainty about any purchase, and even when you feel you bought something that's not quite right for you, pirated downloads only serve to make the guys who originate, design and construct the tricks lose out. i've been surprised by having a few times ordered items direct from a 'name' magician and find that i have a phone or email conversation with the actual magician if i have a  query about the product. while this is a treat for me, it also says that, despite their reputations, most of these guys are not running vast corporations and turning huge profits - they're spending their evenings and weekends putting tricks or books in envelopes and posting them off to people who've ordered their products. they're also taking the time to provide their own sales and after sales service, while getting out and doing lectures and so on, often while working at a 'proper' job too to balance the budget. and these are the people who make things interesting for the rest of us by thinking or writing creatively, turning concepts into workable tricks, or just setting a standard in some aspect of magic that inspires others. and these are the people that pirating hits.

[paymerich]

First off , Great episode!! Glad to see you back. I asked a laymen coworker to watch Scraper and he busted out laughing on how stupid and obvious it was. I did not speak at all during the demo video. So he figured it out by then end of the demo.  Let's start the "NO MORE CRAP " campaign!

And to those "certain people" who are frustated with the timeliness of the podcasts to the point of bad mouthing it, go jump in a lake!  A&K give us the most valuable thing in their lives (no not his child!) TIME.   and what do some of you give back CRAP!   If you want to start your own thing, great, but don't bust on some else's hard work.


 

[McAig]

FI asked a laymen coworker to watch Scraper

i read that as "a layman cow-worker". time to shut down the computer i think

[marty]

I don't know how I feel about these things. I got interested in magic because of some books in the local public library that described magic. As a kid I didn't have access to anyplace where I could learn about magic besides the library. If you talk to some authors, you will find that they are against borrowing books or even having a used book market. If you want to see the material whether it is in a book or a pamphlet or a video then you should pay for it.

Is the same true of showing someone how something is done? What if you can build something, if you build a copy for yourself have you done something wrong? I am not talking about building from published plans or from instructions in a book or video (assuming you have paid for the video or book) but just saying, gee that's a great idea, I can make that.

Is it okay if something isn't otherwise available? I fly indoor model airplanes and one of the "bibles" of building these models has been out of print for 20 years and is really scarce on the used book market. I've seen copies sold on eBay for $200. Is it okay for me to copy a plan from this for someone else to use?

Marty

[McAig]

there are a million different examples of what does and doesn't constitute ripping off someone's ideas, but i'd say that most people know when they feel uneasy or know it's pushing things too far.

there is certainly scope for developing someone else's idea and trying to get more out of it, and most people who put out tricks are themselves building on ideas that go back to Vernon, Marlo, Erdnase and beyond. and i'm not saying that all of them are exactly angels when it comes to giving credit for that either. and if you're trying to get something isn't otherwise available / has been discontinued, if it's something you think you can develop an idea etc, that's a personal call to suit the circumstances.but i think that's something different though, to cases of seeing that something you think looks really good and costs twenty pounds / dollars in a shop or you can download it for free.

my job depends on my ideas having worth, and i know how galling it is to find that someone has taken something that i spent a long time developing and clarifying and has just taken the end product and ripped it off. it happens and it's not good!

[Maya]

I suppose one could argue that in a perfect world we could gain free access to all these effects and then only pay for the ones we actually use.

But what if I decide to finally perform an effect after it's been taken off the market?

What if I incorporate original aspects of the method or handling, but don't perform the actual effect?

What if the method inspires me to create my own similar effect?

Even with so-called honest intentions, that's a lot to accurately keep up with and fairly compensate the creator for.

The main ethical problem I have is that this is not a perfect world.  Many people steal pirated material with no intention to ever pay for it.  That hurts the creator of the effect and all of us.  So the last thing I want to do is exploit an activity that is wrong for my own personal benefit.

Ethics aside, it's also illegal.

[garethwitty]

You is too slow, this was covered by Mike Giusti at http://tricktalk.mypodcast.com/

Hey! great to see ya guys back!