Episode 94 Discussion

[AnthonyH]

This is all I'm going to say to the question of pirating and 'paying for what you use'.

IF you're doing table/party/stage magic, and you use effects/tricks that you pirated off the internet, AND you actually pay for them, you are not a good magician. Even IF you're getting thunderous applause.

My thinking is that if you ARE a good magician, then you've at least studied the basic principles of magic. If you know these principles and subtleties, AND you have a creative mind (ie creating a new effect from something old), then why not just take a few weeks, sit in your den or office or wherever it is that you practice your art, and actually CREATE your OWN magic effects from things that you've learned from others.

I admit, I'm not a very creative person. Hence, I purchase my effects from (usually) well-known magicians or magic stores. I pretty much stick to the patter that I'm supplied with and, so far, have gotten decent results for those I perform for (for free so far).
I'm Not a very good magician, so I only have a few that I can perform out in public. But I PAID for these effects. I also Paid for a BOOK (Paper-back, Printed BOOK!) that I've read cover-to-cover several times. I'm going to purchase several more books in the next year, so that I can evolve into a better magician.

My point; If you want to learn magic, there are good books in brick & mortar stores everywhere. Learn the basic principles. Do what so many of the really Excellent magicians have done and support those who you're learning from by asking questions about books/dvd's, downloads and props. Get second opinions from your peers before you invest your hard-earned money.

There are a LOT of tricks that I simply CANNOT perform due to being paralyzed from the chest-down. So I ask, I listen, and I watch out for buttholes trying to rip people off. That's why I'm on this forum (although it's nice to make friends here).

Let's keep the magician's code and quit soliciting those who are in the business of putting things out on the net for all to grab. I equate people who pirate from the net a "John" looking for a prostitute. Go trolling long enough, you're likely to find what you're looking for, for free- at least free to grab. Think about your future in magic. I want to be able to say, "I paid for this effect, and worked damned hard to get it right". And I want to support those who create, and help make them look good, and help make them feel proud to be helping this great community.

_/end

-AnthonyH

[mgshn]

I can only assume the "Scraper" name comes not from the act of "scraping" the chosen card off the back of the glass...but in fact, the "scraping" of the huge glob of magician's wax left on the window.  Better name might be "ForceGooeyGlass", since it will force you to reconsider purchasing any more magic from their site.

...but... But...BUT YOU CAN SEE THE GLOB OF WAX IN THE DEMO!  How stupid can it be?  Then again, it is a card through glass and only $30... hmmmmm

[todd]

IN DEFENSE OF B

A long time ago, you used to be able to listen to records in the music store before you bought an album.  (That's the way it should be.)  The sellers would let you know exactly what you were getting.  It was called customer service. 

(AS AN ASIDE - I have discovered Denny at Dennymagic.com.  The guy is awesome and i only buy things from him on the inernet.  He has answered my questions and been very helpful with my purchases)

Then something changed.  Shops started to realize that they were losing money on some sales because people didn't like what they heard.  Customer service came to be Sales.  And Sales are in large part mre important than cusomer service.  As soon as customer sevice comes back, I will probably start agreeing with the rights of the seller a bit more.  But what about the ethics of the seller?


In todays world, there are service fees and convienience fees for almost everything.  For most mortgages if you set them up to be automatically withdrawn from your account, they charge you more. 

Where does it all end and where does the issue really lie?  Is it all the consumers fault?  I think not.  IS it all the sellers?  No again.  There are shades of gray here.  Most of us, consumers, are trying to be honest about things.  Many of us get screwed for it at some point.  Most businesses are honest but have been screwed by a consumer.  We all pay the price for the minority that mess up a good thing.

I realize that this is a bit of a stretch but what "B" is doing seems almost perfectly ethical to me.  Legal is a different matter. 

Here is the almost part...  IF you watch something, whether or not you use it, you have learned from it.  You may not use it but it has had an effect on you and is with you.  HOw many of us have read books that we didn't like the ending of or gone to see a movie we didn't particularly like?  You still paid for the experience. 

I have hundreds of music books, videos, and extra drum "toys" that I never should have been allowed to purchase for one reason or the other.  As a beginner in magic but a much wiser consumer, I do not have much wasted magic "stuff". 

As "B" sated, he does not have a real magic store near him.  He must use the internet for his purchases.  I say you take the good with the bad.  To download something you think you will be interested in is okay as long as you buy it for real if you like it.

The real ethical question for me is...  What do you do with the stuff you have downloaded but don't like?  I wish there was a way to make donations on every site.  I'd drop a few bucks to the purchase of something I won't ever use and would feel great about it if I did not have to pay the entire price.

ANDREW AND KEITH SHOULD PUT UP A PAYPAL LINK ON THE SITE.  I'D GLADLY GIVE'EM A FEW BUCKS FOR THE TIME I'VE SPENT LISTENING AND LEARNING

I think we can probably all agree that being honest and ethical is better than not.  But, what do you do in a situation like B's or a similar situation where money is really tight?

I could go on and on and on.

As a parting thought.  Before we get too tough on B.  Almost everyone I know has downloaded a song or two for free.  Let he among us who is without that sin cast the first stone.

[tbt204]

ANDREW AND KEITH SHOULD PUT UP A PAYPAL LINK ON THE SITE.  I'D GLADLY GIVE'EM A FEW BUCKS FOR THE TIME I'VE SPENT LISTENING AND LEARNING

Amen! If we all took the money we spent on Junk magic that sits in our junk drawer and gave it to GMG, Andrew and Keith would be filthy rich.

[FigaroTheParrot]

And Keith could put that money towards hurricane shutters, flares, non-perishable food items, back-up generators, and bottled water.


...and a girlfriend.

[tbt204]

don't forget a level 4 biosuit. can't be too careful

[Michael L.]

I think we can probably all agree that being honest and ethical is better than not.  But, what do you do in a situation like B's or a similar situation where money is really tight?

I guess you find out if you are really an ethical person.

[McAig]

and even in those circumstances, you also have to also factor in that the guy who produced the item may well be in the same situation. money may well be tight for him/her too, the difference being that he/she has put together something and taken the time and effort to get it out there and deserves not to be ripped off by the person wanting to find out how it works. even a best selling magic book or trick will not sell many copies / units, compared with more 'mainstream' items, and i doubt if many of the originators of magic tricks / books / dvds are raking in millions through their sales

[reallyhotpants]

3rd degree burn review:  =)  "pulled a criss angel" 

hillarious!

-kent

[Batwing]

I had the same thoughts that Marty expressed. But not just about books of magic. Would you call someone a "pirate" for just checking out, say, the Harry Potter novels from the public library and reading them without directing any money toward J.K. Rowling? 
Maybe it's okay since you don't copy the book. But you do know have all the information in the Potter books.

[Michael L.]

Those are fictional works.  It isn't the same.

[todd]

Michael - Why do you think it's any different for fictional works than any non fiction?

Just curious....

[McAig]

the library visitor wouldn't be pirating, if it's in the library you can safely assume that the book has been cleared with the publisher / author etc, through whatever agreements they have, that you can access its contents. different thing from downloading someone's marketed trick, which they haven't given permission for you to access other than via a payment

[FigaroTheParrot]

Damn it McAig...I was writing those exact sentiments, went to post it, and got the little warning that another post had been made while I was typing. Next time Gadget....

[Michael L.]

Because it is.  The "product" of the work of fiction is the story itself.  They are also sold to the library with full knowledge that they are going to a library.

Books do not automatically get to be distributed in a library, by the way. I have worked for companies that publish books on their products (I have even written some of them).  They are not for distribution, not for the public and not to end up in libraries because they are full of the intellectual property (in the form of schematics) of the company that published them.

When you purchase a magic product (prop, DVD or book) you are also purchasing the implied right to perform the material unless otherwise stated.  Without that, you really don't have a right to perform the material.  You do not, for example, automatically have the right to use the material in TV or videotaped performances and you shouldn't be surprised if creators start exercising their option NOT to automatically grant that right to purchasers.
 
Let me ask you this: if you buy illusion plans from a creator, are you be able to build and sell the illusion?  Or if you had the schematics for an iMac could you build and sell iMacs?  The answer is no. 

The problem with magic is that even if you do not use the method you have illegally obtained to perform, it is often still of use to you.  Sometimes in magic knowing how you do not want to do something is just as valuable as knowing how you are going to do it.  That knowledge still plays a part in the creative process, whether or not you care to admit it.  This industry is entertainment, true, but, like it our not, one of the bricks in its foundation is Secrets.  They are always valuable!

->edited to correct typo<-